What’s Wrong with the World

We do Lydia, his name is Christopher West, hugh hefner is one of his hero's, he compares the Canticle of Solomon to a playboy centerfold. and all traditional Catholics run like the plauge whenever he's in town.

Wow. I've driven by that very church (Trinity Methodist, Homewood, Alabama) goodness knows how many times and have even been there for a funeral and for a Sunday service. Its stained glass is striking, and its choir is precise. Thankfully, I did not encounter Ignatius, his being a guest preacher and what-not. And I was at the traditional service that Sunday morning.

Fortunately, this video's a satire and the UMC does in fact provide its youth with clear guidance regarding issues young Christians face today. Here is but one example from The Book of Discipline of The United Methodist Church, 2004.

"Our belief in the sanctity of unborn human life makes us reluctant to approve abortion. But we are equally bound to respect the sacredness of the life and well-being of the mother, for whom devastating damage may result from an unacceptable pregnancy. In continuity with past Christian teaching, we recognize tragic conflicts of life with life that may justify abortion, and in such cases we support the legal option of abortion under proper medical procedures. We cannot affirm abortion as an acceptable means of birth control, and we unconditionally reject it as a means of gender selection."
http://archives.umc.org/interior.asp?mid=1732

On second though, perhaps Ignatius might provide better pastoral guidance after all.

www.larknews.com

Enjoy :)

his name is Christopher West, hugh hefner is one of his hero's, he compares the Canticle of Solomon to a playboy centerfold. and all traditional Catholics run like the plauge whenever he's in town.

Completely untrue. While I lean towards the Schindler & Granados take on some of Chris West's language, it is wrong not to acknowledge the orthodox moral theologians who support his work;

“I want to add my voice to those who are enthusiastic about the West/Theology of the Body phenomenon. I think it is important to keep in mind, as Akin does, who West’s audience is. It is largely the sexually wounded and confused who have been shaped by our promiscuous and licentious culture. People need to think long and hard about the appropriate pedagogy for that group. Yet, as West himself knows, his approach is not for everyone. An analogy that pushes the envelope may be "offensive" to one person and may be just the hook that draws another person in. West has adopted a style that appeals to a large segment of that population—and even to some who are “pure and innocent.”
Janet Smith
http://www.headlinebistro.com/en/news/janetsmithresponse.html

“West's work is uncompromisingly in line with the Church's faith,”
Dr. Michael Waldstein, who was a translator for John Paul II’s “Theology of the Body
http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2009/jun/09060108.html

1stly Kevin I said Traditionalist Catholics run like hell when West is in town not neo-catholics who fawn over protestants but can't get away fast enough from SSPX'ers like me. (for the record I have a great admiration for many protestants such as Lydia, her Husband and Dr William Lane Craig who do a sterling job defending the resurection of Our Lord within thier own assemblies, in fact I admire them so much that I would be thrilled if they found the fullness of Christ in the Catholic Church)

2ndly after reviewing J. Akin's and Dr Smith's articles
I will concede that one can read Christopher West in an othordox light and that I had been mislead over his comments regarding the Canticle of Canticles and Hugh Hefner, however to the average laymen it is very confusing and ambiguous.

3rdly In spite of the Above I still find West's presentation vulger and offensive to pious sensabilaties which is why I compared him to ignatius from the black lagoon. Assuming here that West is only speaking to Catholics I don't see what he can do that Sister Mary Margeret (for Girls), Brother Francis (for boys) Or the Parish Priest (in the yearly sermon on the 10 commandments)can't do using language that is much more pleasing to the ears and is not potentially scandolous.

Dawn Eden had an excellent and detailed series of lengthy articles on West, much of which I read. She had a guest writer do it. I found it informative, carefully written, and serious. It was neither abusive nor over-the-top, but it raised some serious questions and cautions. I hope her archives remain available with that series indefinitely even though Dawn is giving up blogging. From what I saw there it definitely sounds to me like West makes unusual and questionable interpretations of things (like the analogy between the Easter candle and a phallic symbol) and does not take anything like sufficient care to make sure his language is appropriate, treats sex with true respect and decorum, and is not a cause of genuine scandal. The word "offensive" is over-used these days. I think we should be hesitant to accept facile statements to the effect that "hey, what's offensive to one person isn't to another." And as ol' Ignatius is reckless about whether his "story about his hot wife" causes impure thoughts in the teens, so, my impression is, West is far more concerned with pushing people out of their comfort zones and eradicating the largely illusory ghost of prudery from his contemporary audience than he is about old-fashioned and thoroughly Christian--not to mention neglected--notions like modesty and restraint in our speech. Obviously, the Ignatius example is deliberately over the top. But though I'd rather the thread didn't go entirely to a debate about Christopher West, I hope we can all agree that there is a temptation among those who are trying to reach a young audience in a Christian context to push the envelope in the wrong direction (of sexual explicitness) rather than to challenge the audience to be counter-cultural in the area of sex, thought, purity, etc.

Going back to Ignatius I remember last year when I was at a Friend's house and he had a copy of the 'street bible' it was so bad it was funny

Maybe Ignatius came from Kent's Church?

I sure wish I could see that video just one more time. The medallion, the shirt, the hair, references to "the pastor's smokin' hot wife"--it's still so vivid after all these years.

I have been spared the street Bible. May God continue to spare me. :-)

Unfortunately, something rather close to Ignatius's cute trick of exposing the students' confession of impure thoughts lies within my knowledge. A local Baptist church youth group put strong pressure on the young people, ages 12-18, to stand up before the entire group (male and female in the room together) and confess their sins, including their sexual sins, out loud to the group. My friend whose son was then 12 in the youth group was absolutely furious. Her son was very upset at hearing these things from his friends, many of whom were a good deal older than he (in teenage terms, especially), and who were talking about acts that he had not even knew existed. There had been, of course, no warning to the families ahead of time so that they could opt out that week. When the parents complained to the youth leaders, they were told that perhaps their son was uncomfortable because he had sins of his own that he should have confessed to the group and was resisting doing so.

Jack, you said traditional not Traditionalist. Mistaken in his approach as he likely is, it is you, not West who is in schism.

I sincerely hope SSPX returns to the fold with you in tow.

Lee, I thought of that, too, and remember it just as you do. I just now checked and found that the Kent's church video has been removed by the user. Small loss. But it does document that a satire like this is by no means so far off in terms of what is going on now to "reach" people. The reference (with picture) to the pastor's "hot wife" was an especially strong parallel and makes me think that the makers of the Ignatius video must have seen that real-life commercial for City Church in Chicago.

I take my hat off to the actor who plays Ignatius. He really makes your toe itch to come into contact with his posterior. I was cheering when he finally got kicked off the stage.

The "Our Father" in Kevin's version of the Novus Ordo Missae:

Big Daddy's Rap (The Lord's Prayer):
Yo, Bid Daddy upstairs (Our Father, who art in heaven)
You be chillin (Hallowed be thy name)
So be yo hood (Thy Kingdom come)
You be sayin' it, I be doin' it (Thy will be done)
In this here hood and yo's (On earth as it is in heaven)
Gimme some eats (Give us this day our daily bread)
And cut me some slack, (And forgive us our trespasses)
Sos I be doin' it to dem dat diss me (As we forgive those who trespass against us)
don't be pushing me into no jive (And lead us not into temptation)
and keep dem Crips away (But deliver us from evil)
'Cause you always be da Man (For thine is the Kingdom, the power and the glory forever and ever.)
Aaa-men (Amen)

Kevin,
(1) Cardinal Hoyes (former head of Ecclesia Dei) says that we are in an irregular cannonical situation, not Schism, (2) Where I come from traditional & Traditionalist mean the same thing.

aristocles

I whilst I doubt Kevin has to endure that level of banality I do love Big daddy's rap and don't doubt that some priests have tried to do something similar.

...don't doubt that some priests have tried to do something similar.

...much to the detriment of the Catholic Faith.

Clever! I laughed at 1:23 where Ignatius is covering up the "F" of his "Flame" logo.

It was only on the third time watching it through that I noticed when he lists the influences on him (Bono, of course) that he says, "C. S. Lewis" and then after a tiny pause goes on to "'s Chronicles of Narnia movies." Then it comes out that he has no clue who Lewis was, that Lewis is now dead, or that he wrote books instead of screenplays for movies. But that tiny pause between "Lewis" and the possessive s before naming only the _movies_ is very funny.

1) Cardinal Hoyes (former head of Ecclesia Dei) says that we are in an irregular cannonical situation, not Schism, (2) Where I come from traditional & Traditionalist mean the same thing

Jack, "where you come from" is the land of private judgement, I'm afraid, but we'll keep the lights on for you. And dude, they never went out!

Ari, I'm flattered and almost tempted to pick up the patois and reply;
"Ever had a prayer parody written about you [edited for language--LM]?"
But I won't.

Kevin,

I never deemed you even remotely capable of such colloquialism; especially of the vulgar sort.

I edited the comment for language. Break it up, boys.

I would like to hear from my fellow Protestants who have seen things like this (or as much as truth can be like parody) themselves.

My friend whose son was then 12 in the youth group was absolutely furious. Her son was very upset at hearing these things from his friends, many of whom were a good deal older than he (in teenage terms, especially), and who were talking about acts that he had not even knew existed.

Lydia, you mean it took that long for this crud to filter into your churches? Lucky you. Over 30 years ago my parents told me to skip school ("Catholic" school, that is) when they tried these tactics. Oh, they didn't announce before-hand what they were going to do, naturally. It's just that, having been burned a couple of times already, my parents figured that whatever was in the works was bad enough.

Well, actually, this was about eight years ago that this happened in my friends' Baptist church. But how could an ostensibly Catholic school be trying to coerce students into confessing their sins to each other? Aren't they supposed to confess to a priest instead? I was expecting some comment about auricular confession to a priest as a preventative for this sort of nonsense from a Catholic reader, and then you tell me that this was already going on in a Catholic school 30 years ago! Learn something new every day!

Ignatius' tale surpasses in some respects another fun Evangelical mockumentary, "Jesus People," about the production of a Christian pop music group. (Jesus People also needles ministers' admiration for Bono.)

I'm also glad they cast the hefty, older church volunteer as the good guy who puts an end to the prurient lameness.

(I missed the flame/lame joke, too!)

These talented filmmakers should direct their satirical energies to the wider culture. With King of the Hill canceled, there are few shows capable of tastefully challenging the "Blue State" ethos.

Get the old guy a sitcom!

From the vimeo.com site for the video: "This is a video we (Student Life) produced for a free youth minister event called Refuge. It was conceived as a satire for what I consider to be an unhealthy "rock star" culture that has been growing inside Christendom, as well as an encouragement for the unheralded heroes on the front lines of ministry. Our friends at the event seemed to get a kick out of it."

Nice to see that something funny and well-done can come out of such events. Travis Hawkins has a future.

Jack said, "... Assuming here that West is only speaking to Catholics I don't see what he can do that Sister Mary Margeret (for Girls), Brother Francis (for boys) Or the Parish Priest (in the yearly sermon on the 10 commandments)can't do using language that is much more pleasing to the ears and is not potentially scandolous."

I wonder if you wouldn't say the same about Pope John Paul II's Theology of the Body. I know many (most?) SSPXer's would ....

A reader adds to my knowledge base by explaining that the bit about raising your Bibles and quoting, "The word of God is living and powerful," etc., is a Joel Osteen spoof. Evidently Osteen does this--without, of course, the bit about its being more than they can handle at this stage of their lives--before his sermons. He got the idea from his father, the difference being, I'm told, that Osteen, Sr., actually then preached from the Bible whereas the present Osteen might as well tell his listeners to put the Bibles under their seats, because they won't need them the rest of the night.

MarkC

I hounestly can't comment on TOB as I haven't read it although I expect that the quality of the language it uses is better than that used to explain it by West, FYI Last year I listened to a explination of TOB by Cardinal Arinze which seemed to be ok, so I'm going out on a limb by saying that I guess its ok. RE the original point of the post John Paul II was also one that liked palling around with the youth (not like ignatius), so much so that sometimes one think that he could've been doing something better with his time i.e. listning to the society, addressing it's concerns and keeping certain members of the Curia from slandering Msgr Lefebvre good name.

Side note on Osteen, Jr.

Rather funny - an enterprising personal injury lawyer here in Houston, who bears an uncanny resemblance to the young Osteen, put up a billboard add right across from OSteen's church (f/k/a home of the Houston Rockets, Aeros and HotShots).

Assuming here that West is only speaking to Catholics I don't see what he can do that Sister Mary Margeret (for Girls), Brother Francis (for boys) Or the Parish Priest (in the yearly sermon on the 10 commandments)can't do using language that is much more pleasing to the ears and is not potentially scandolous.

Brother Francis gets to meet the confirmation candidates only twice, and the first time they didn't care to even listen. Sister Mary Margaret remembers the advice about wearing pearls or patent leather shoes when she was a little girl, but is totally unprepared for a fight against peer pressure and 'sex-ting'. Father's yearly homily stands as a lone plight for sanity that lasts a mere fifteen minutes, and must contend against five thousand, eight hundred forty waking hours of pervasive perversion in the media. He might not be Sheen or Corapi, but he's better than nothing.

As for the original topic: Ivan Dragicevic of Medjugorje fame

"He might not be Sheen or Corapi, but he's better than nothing."

So Patrick you prepared to accept a poisoned cake becasue there's no other food on the Table? Confirmation classes in the SSPX are much more rigorous (they actually reject candidates who haven't been properly taught), You do know that many of Sheen's talks are available online for a reasonable price?

I agree with you about the Medjugorie 'seers' and come to think of it, in the Evangelical world Paula White seems to conform to the ignatius stereotype :)

Poisoned cake? Not likely. Perhaps unevenly cooked with too much pineapple frosting, but not quite poisoned.

As for SSPX...I'd rather not. I may enjoy the EF with the priests of the Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest and not have to worry about whether the Sacraments are licit.

I may enjoy the EF with the priests of the Institute of Christ the King

Well lucky you patrick, if the ICKSP operated in the UK I might consider it, unfortunately right know the SSPX is the best medicine on the table in the UK, despite the fact that some people have reported the pill as tasting bitter.

Was Rome built in a day? Milwaukee suffered under the reign of T.M.R. Rembert George Weakland for many horrifying years. Said Archbishop emeritus is primarily responsible for the "Folk Mass" and the conception of numerous and sundry abuses that are now common. I dare anyone to gaze with horror at the gutting of the Cathedral of St. John the Evangelist!

I have suffered for many years of liberal interpretations of the Ordinary Form, most of it performed with even less reverence than T.M.R. Annibale Bugnini intended. One of those few and wondrous times in which an attempt to dignify Christ in this blighted form happened to be on a day that a certain lapsed Catholic was wandering nearby. I will give you a gist of the homily that pagan heard:

Look at the Crucifix. Behold the sufferings of Christ Jesus. Are we not the Body of Christ? Well, then that is us.

The homily, as well as the Mass, was celebrated by a Polish priest who had that same lesson taught to him by his father, when he asked why he didn't have any uncles. He was a child at that time, but it gave him many years to wonder about the composition of soap.

Perhaps one day your prayers will be answered, and the ICKSP or FSSP will come to town, or the SSPX return in full and unreserved union. Until then, remember that Jesus has to suffer through all those awful Masses too, and He could use the company.

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